Behavior Buzzzzzz with 2 Amys

A Dog Trainer Mystery - Part 2

• Dr. Amy L. Pike & Dr. Amy Learn • Season 2 • Episode 19

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0:00 | 33:20

Come for the mystery... stay for the buzzzzzz 🥂! And now... the suspenseful conclusion of this two-part series featuring world renowned animal behaviorist and author, Dr. Patricia McConnell. 

CHEERS! from your favorite VBees 🐝🐝 and the team at Behavior Buzzzzzz with 2 Amys veterinary behavior podcast. Thanks for sticking with us! 🍯

Visit The Honey Pot at behaviorbuzzzzzz.com for additional episode references and more information about our mysterious guest, Dr. Patricia McConnell. Thanks, Tricia!! 


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Ceva Animal Health, makers of ThunderEase® & FELIWAY® products

Amy L. Pike, DVM, DACVB, IAABC-CDBC - Co-Host
Amy Learn, VMD, DACVB, IAABC-CABC - Co-Host
Teryn Blais, Executive Producer

SPEAKER_01

Previously on Behavior Buzz.

SPEAKER_00

Dun dun dun. And I just pause, saw that my laptop is gonna run out of battery.

SPEAKER_04

So go get my charger. I'm gonna get my charger. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03

There goes Trisha. Bye.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome back, Hive Mind, to part two of a Dog Trainer Mystery, where we are buzzing with excitement to return to our talk with Patricia McConnell. If you missed part one, go back and listen to that first, because this isn't gonna make any sense. Then come back here for more Behavior Buzz, the veterinary behavior podcast that aims to bring cutting-edge scientific information and education to pet parents, behavior professionals, and the veterinary community. I am still your co-host, Dr. Amy Pike, a board certified veterinary behaviorist. And she still has to deal with me, the other co-host, Dr.

SPEAKER_03

Amy Lern, also a board-certified veterinary behaviorist. We, as usual, are coming to you live from the PRN PharmaCal Studios. And Amy, do you know what PRN stands for?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I do now, but did you realize my growing up, my parents, my mom is a nurse and my grandma was a nurse, and they used to say PRN all the time. And they told me it meant her request needed. That's not what it is. That's when we Oh, what is it? It's pro Rainata. A Latin phrase.

SPEAKER_02

I thought you were telling me a real story.

SPEAKER_03

But that's what it means when you write PRN meds. It's pro Rainata. Oh, per request needed.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's so funny. That's what my mom said too.

SPEAKER_01

She was a nurse. No, that's absolutely pro-Rainata. A Latin phrase meaning as the circumstance arises. And do you, other Amy, know how long the vet community has been trusting PRN PharmaCal to be here when needed with industry-leading research and innovative products to improve animal health and quality of life? I sure do.

SPEAKER_03

That's since 1978. And you know why that's so important? It's because when I was little, I used to watch the Muppet Show, and 1978 is when the Muppet Show debuted. Since 1978, the Muppets too have been here when I need them.

SPEAKER_01

PRN PharmaCal, but not the Muppets, are a proud sponsor of the Behavior Puzzs Podcast. They're committed to physical and emotional health of animals everywhere. Maybe even Muppets. And that's why their slogan is PRN PharmaCal, here when you need us.

SPEAKER_03

I think the Muppets had the same slogan. They were definitely committed to my physical and emotional health. It was like Muppets, here when you need us.

SPEAKER_02

Amy comes in front of the TV.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not sure that's actually true, but let's get on with the second half of our fun conversation with Dr. Patricia McConnell. We left off with her telling us about writing her new book, a mystery novel called A Way to Me. So here we go.

SPEAKER_00

All right, we're back in business. We're back in business. You would think I had done this before.

SPEAKER_03

No God.

SPEAKER_00

There we go. Oh. Okay, what the hell was I saying?

SPEAKER_01

That is a great question. Um you mentioned that there are so many twists and turns and kind of like side mysteries in this book. How did you keep them all straight? Especially if you didn't do the sort of traditional right from the uh backwards and go to the front.

SPEAKER_00

How did you do it? Oh, with tremendous angst. It was honestly, it was not the smooth process. It really wasn't. I, you know, um, I mean, I did it all wrong. Like, you know, I'd have the first four or five chapters, and then I didn't know it was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I'd have something happen, and then I like, oh no, that doesn't work, and then rewrite it. And but I will say, like a like almost all fiction writers in the entire world, this this was this, you know, it's never right to just have your name on a book. I mean, I had so many helpers. I had this wonderful reading group of women, you know, a small group of really smart women who read a lot. And they were, I called them, um, I lived in an area called the Driftless Area, which is geologically a incredibly unique, amazing area of the country. Um, it deserves far more protection than it gets. So we called ourselves the I called them the Driftless Mystery Advisory Group. Oh, that's right. And they would read drafts and then I would have them for tea, and I would make them scones, and and I would say what worked, what didn't work. They were great. And then I had lots of readers. One of the person who had the biggest influence on me, bless her, dear friend and colleague Kat Warren, who wrote New York Times Bestseller, What the Dog Knows. If you don't have it, you definitely need it. It's a fabulous book. Um and so she decided she started to delve into writing fiction too. So we became writing partners. So we would it was so every month for the last almost five years, we have sent each other material and then talked about it. So we have a FaceTime talk once a month, and then I have a great agent, and then I had a great editor at Kensington Books who was like, you know, I think you need to like modify this a little bit. And some of the things she said, I was like, no, I don't think so. And then other things I would like be like, okay, this is a professional writer-editor woman who knows what the hell she's doing. Right, right. So, yeah, so it's just it's constant changing and editing and learning and getting feedback. Yeah. Sounds like a lot of work, honestly. It is. It is. Well, especially if you do it the way I do it, which is totally ass backwards. Right.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. I love that so much. Well, we did talk about how stories are an escape, but stories are also what makes us human, right? We we cry and we laugh and we're scared and we're wondering about what's gonna happen next. What story, what emotional truth did you most hope that your readers would take away from away to me?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it is a hero's journey. It is a classic hero's journey. And so many, I mean, what two-thirds of the novels out there are heroes' journeys. Right. In some way, right? In some way, you know, I mean, it goes back to Greek mythology. It's, you know, it's it's Dune, it's Star Wars, it's, you know, it's it's everything. So, you know, every, you know, somebody who's just somebody, right? Just every man, every woman, just somebody. Maddie McGowan in this case, Maddie McGowan, 40-something woman who had some shit happen and is living her life in this beautiful little small farm in, you know, in in Wisconsin, in Clear Creek, Wisconsin. Then shit happens. And the the he this person, this character is forced, um, some by choice, and and it's very much by Maddie's choice, by the way. Matt Maddie, I would just I need to say this. Maddie is driven by by her devotion to dogs. She is not, she, you know, she's good with people, she's good with her clients, but she doesn't have a lot of close friends. Sort of, as I said, stays in her lane, but she is driven by her devotion to helping dogs. And when a dog becomes in danger, she risks her life and almost loses it to save this dog. So it's a hero's journey in that this sort of you know, everyday person ends up risking a tremendous amount doing something really scary, you know, going through the cave, you know, this whatever, you know, whatever it is, um, in order to make something better and ends up learning more about him or herself in the end. And and, you know, that's what it is. It's you know, it's a it's a hero's journey. And it just happens to be about a woman and dogs who go on their own hero's journey, by the way. Yeah. That's what I wanted to write, you know, because we all have our own journeys. Every one of us, I mean, I think the reason the quote hero's journey and that narrative arc that I described is so ubiquitous and so universal is because we're all on our own hero's journey. I mean, all of us. There's there's a fabulous line in a book I just finished called The Correspondent, which is also just awesomely wonderful. The correspondent, it's fabulous. Um, there's a line in there, an older woman says, It is astounding how much life throws at you. And who could not say that? Who could not say that? I mean, I will tell you right now, yesterday uh I could do this without crying, I think. I found out that Skip might have bladder cancer. Oh gosh. I know, I know. And hopefully I will find out in a couple of days that he doesn't. Um, by the way, if now I've set your readers up, it's like you can go to my blog and find out what happens, by the way. I I will make it clear on Facebook and on my blog um what happens. But it was just one of those things that just especially, and this happens to dog lovers because we have such big extended families. We have our friends, we have our families, we have our dog families, right? Shit happens, you know, and really hard stuff happens. And we all have to deal with it. And it it is truly astounding, really, what life throws at us, every single one of us.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and so we all have our own heroes' journey. And I think that's partly why they're so popular and it's so ubiquitous and universal to read these journeys and then to get to a place where somebody has risen above what was dragging them down. Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you do explore a lot of emotions. I mean, all the way from like joy and fear and love, but I love that you do both the human emotions and the canine emotions in the main storyline, but also through Dr. McGowan's cases that she sees throughout the book. Like she's working throughout this whole time. So talking from the emotional standpoint, the book notwithstanding, like how do you see these emotions bridging the gap between people and animals?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you said it. You just you just answered, you know, you the answer is in your question. Isn't I mean it's a great question because it it has the answer in it? That is that is that is what bridges the gap, right? This emotional life that we share. I mean, the more we know about dogs and neurophysiology and and you know, all body physiology and neurobiology, the more we know, the more we know we're the same. Now, does that mean if the same place in the amygdala of a dog, you know, becomes extra activated as it does in the amygdala of a person, does that mean we're experiencing the same thing? No. I mean, as a scientist, and I know you appreciate this especially, we all have to be really careful and not get ahead of ourselves, you know, start leaning over our skis too far, we're gonna fall down. So one of the things I was very intentional about, just unconsciously, I guess, just because it's part of my life, was talking about the emotional life of dogs as I felt confident. And if I didn't know, if a dog was doing something and Maddie McGowan didn't know how to interpret it without sort of a reasonable basis, she would say, I don't know why that dog did that, you know. I don't know what that look meant. Um but one of the things I do, I do hope, and I again this was not my intention writing it, but when I was like two-thirds of the way done or half or almost done, you sort of start looking back and and you start realizing people would learn a lot about dog behavior by reading this book. They will and and and about what an animal behaviorist does, you know, what what life is like, you know, for us, what it's like to see these clients. And by the way, I will say that every client that Maddie B I one saw is based, obviously change for privacy's sake, but it's based on clients I saw. I love it. I would I would have guessed that. Yeah. Yeah. Because they, I mean, talk about potential drama. I mean, oh yeah. So true. You know, I my you know, for all you listeners out there, I think most of them, many of them, I'm sure, are professionals in some kind of you know, dog-related work. And I the the impression I get very strongly is that people see us as spending our days running in fields of daisies with golden retriever puppies. Right, right, yeah, hitting the puppy kittens. I'm sure this has happened to you and and many, many people listening. It's like people hear what you do. I don't even say it on a plane anymore because it's just like right, disaster, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But either they say, oh, well, I have a dog who, you know, it's like trying to rest here, or or it's um, oh, oh, I've always wanted to do what you do. I'd always wanted to be an ammo behaviorist. You're so lucky. You're so lucky. And it's like, I am, I am lucky, and I love what I do. Yeah. But do you know that I came home last night and cried for hours because I had to talk to people and the sobbing fireman, you know, who is so brave that he'll burst into burning buildings to save somebody's kitten, but he's brokenhearted because his dog bit the neighbor, little girl, right? Right. You know, it's it's a hard job. It really is. It's a very important job. And I don't think, frankly, all of us get enough credit um just in terms of it being an important profession, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you, you know, you trailblazed for the rest of us.

SPEAKER_00

You definitely no, I, you know, I stand on so many shoulders. I mean, you know, Karen, I I wish Karen Pryor was still with us, so I can again thank her, you know, for everything I learned from her. I mean, Jane Goodall, I mean, so many people out there. Um, but so we we are very emotional creatures, and dogs are very emotional creatures. And part of what I would like people to learn is that, yes, they can be scared, they can look aggressive because they're frightened, they can be traumatized, they can need help after something scary happened. They're not doing it to get back at you. They're not doing it because they want to be dominant, they're not not doing what you want because they have some ego investment in messing your day up, right?

SPEAKER_03

Amen, sister.

unknown

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

And, you know, because we're humans, we have to make attributions, and they're so often not correct. And we can all fall into it, right? I mean, hopefully I'm not alone. Is it every once in a while, you know, I'll call Skip to come up from down the hill and it's ice raining and it's windy and it's horrible, and he's like, No, I'm busy up here, you know. And and you know, there's that little moment of like, oh yeah, you know, of like ear, uh and it's like, okay, what do I need to do, you know, right to make it worthwhile for him to come because he's getting really reinforced up there because he just found ear scat, you know. So that's exactly true. But I do think it's the emotions that binds us. I mean, it's it's a miraculous, it's a biological miracle, if you think about it, that we have this unbelievable family-friend relationship with a predator who could rip our throats out seriously at any moment. Right. And I think every behaviorist and trainer thinks like, why doesn't it happen more often? I agree. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03

Every day I hear stories and I'm like, wow, that should have gone really lucky. Oh my goodness. I'm so glad that we're talking about those emotions because that is the next thing that I want to think about here. You know, this concept of emotional healing and and how important was that to weave into the mystery's resolution?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it was it was huge, obviously. I mean, talk about heroes' journey. And so, you know, the hero's journey always is that the hero comes out, right? Um, so again, not wanting to give too much away from the plot, but um it was yeah, so I'm trying to figure out what to say and what not to say. No, don't give it away, don't give it away. I know, but but I I I will I will just say this I don't like books that are sunshiny, cheerful all the time because I don't find them something I can relate to. Yeah, because my I don't my life isn't sunshiny, you know. Cherry on top all the time. But I also uh let me let me let me put it this way. You can see I'm struggling, right? Let me put it this way. I'm reading a book right now that is so down, the character, the protagonist is so miserable and so down that I might just stop reading it because I just I don't need I you know there's just enough You don't need that negativity in your life. Yeah, life is hard, you know, the world is we're crazy, you know, a lot, there's a lot of shit happening around us. And yeah, so I wanted to write a book that was um engaging, that was a page turner, but didn't end up bringing people down, you know. Right. Well, I think you would have to do that. And and I had to keep, I mean, let's face it, I want to write a trilogy, right? So I had to keep Maddie McGowan alive. True. That's right.

SPEAKER_01

Can't show her off. Brunel. I love Brunel. Yeah, it's great. Well, other than the fact that we want everyone to run right out and order your book, what else would you like the hive mind to take away from today's episode with you?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's such a great question. Yeah, obviously, yeah, buy the book and then and then get your friends to buy the book. But but I, you know, I think I I guess what I would love people to think about is how enmeshed dogs are involved in the drama of our lives, and how they can make you know our life harder, and how they can make our life better, and just sort of the miracle that I was talking about of this relationship we have with dogs as friends and family members, and in you know, the case of sheepdog trialing, which we haven't talked a whole lot about, Maddie is that's her hobby. So there are a lot of scenes at sheepdog trials. And the thing about having a dog who works with you on sheep that is so special to me that I want people to get out of this, is that if you have a working dog, whether it's a you know, scent detection dog, right? Or a working sheepdog, you are partners, and you are partners with an individual who is better at something than you are. Nobody can read sheep like a dog. Nobody. There are like two people in the world, well, in the North America that I know pretty damn close, but really that's about it. And they also rely on their dogs. Dogs can read sheep way better, dogs can sift out scents way better than we can. So, one of the things I would love people to get out of this book is sort of the miracle of this additional layer of connection from friends and family member to also a working partner where the two of you are using your individual unique skills to create a partnership that is stronger than the whole. And that I gotta say, that creates a bond with a dog that is pretty profound. It's really pretty profound. So I would love to be able to get sort of immersed in that world and more think more about your dog being a partner as well as a friend and a family member. Yeah, it's cool.

SPEAKER_03

I love that so much. And and I think about it in um kind of different echelons, right? Like we have um dogs that we like, and and certainly then you have that special dog that you're really bonded to, and you share, you know, that heart. And even on top of that, when you have this partnership, it is like one being. You're just a pair that can't be separated because of that intense relationship that you have. Uh so I love that you kind of brought that feeling out. Well, now I'm gonna challenge you again because we are at the Buzzworthy Buzzkill section of our podcast. And for those of you who may have heard some purring and some cat rubbing against my microphone along these interview questions, just forgive my potato. He's he's intimately invested in what's going on with this book. So he's been making a show of it throughout the podcast. But back to back to business. I want you, Tricia, to tell us a special story, a controversy, something even from maybe your behavior work that is the weirdest or the funniest or the most interesting thing a client or a patient ever did or said, and then our hive mind can listen and vote whether it's buzzworthy or a buzzkill.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I have a story, but I have I'm dying to find out if it's a buzzworthy or a buzzkill. All right. Okay. Um and by the way, I just want to circle back for one second. There are cats in this novel, Thelma and Louise.

SPEAKER_03

Cats are not left out.

SPEAKER_00

Cats are not left out. Thelma and Louise are absolutely important characters in this book. Um, and one of them is gonna play a bigger role and come by, I think.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my goodness, I'm dying!

SPEAKER_00

Love all these like little hints. Yes, yes, yes. So, um, so okay, I have a story it's about. Wettding your pants.

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_00

I have two wedding your pants story. One is quick. I'm going to a client, a very um a woman who's I'm going to a very wealthy neighborhood, and I'm a little more dressed up than I usually am, and I don't even know why. But I have a can of soda or pop, depending on where you live. You know what's happening in my crotch, and I had a slam on my brakes. And so I have the perfect wet crotch line on my light pan pants. I ring the doorbell, and this very beautiful, very well-dressed woman answers the door. And I'm like, what I just, and all I could think of to say is I just said, Hi, I'm Patricia McConnell, and I do not have a house training problem. So that's number one. But um I will tell you another story. Okay, I am 16 or 17. I'm working at a stable. My first crush is on Carl the Cowboy. Carl and Matt are the cowboy. They're real cowboys. They're from Idaho and Montana. I mean, they're real cowboys, right? They helped run this dude ranch for people who came out of this little resort in Scottsdale, Arizona, uh, where I used to live. And so I worked there. And Carl and Matt decided that they could buy themselves a quarter horse and make some money because there was a new quarter horse track that opened up somewhere in Scottsdale. But of course, it costs money to do that, and it costs money to hire a jockey. Well, they didn't have money to hire a jockey, but I was, I was basically anorexic, so I weighed nothing. Oh my gosh. Jeez. So they came to me and said, Would you, would you like help us train this horse? You never had any training at all, right? They didn't know what they were doing. So they put me on a racing saddle. And if you don't know, the stirrups are so high that you're literally standing, you're literally standing on the horse. Yeah. And then you claps your body and your knees so that you're close down to your horse. But you're literally, your stirrups aren't basically sort of where your shoulders are, basically. And so they put me on this horse and this saddle, and they're like, Are you okay? And I just lied through my teeth because I'm stupid and I'm young and I'm in love. And I'm like, I was terrified, totally uncomfortable. Oh my God. So because they're idiots, and I was equally an idiot, we go to the track, the horse has never been a starting gate. Never been a starting gate. So it's my job to help this horse learn to come out of the starting gate. So I'm in this massive metal box. So your knees are in between this huge metal box and this 1200-pound panic animal, right? Oh no. And Carl says, just grab a hold of the mane because he's gonna lunge out of there. So just you know, grab a hold of the mane as best as you possibly can. So I do, and I'm in this little metal box, and this horse is just really nervous, and the bell goes off, and you don't know that inside the starting gate, it's like 120 decibels. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I'm equally freaked out. The horse is absolutely terrified, lunges out with all of the power of a really brilliantly bred quarter horse. I, of course, immediately lose my grip on the reins and I bounce back onto the animal's butt. Oh my gosh. So I am now going around the truck, bouncing on the animal's butt. A pretty good balance, and I'm still holding onto the reins, but I have peed my pants. I didn't need, I mean, just it happened when the bell went off. As we're running around, I'm slowly, slowly, slowing down, and I realized like I, you know, I'm not gonna fall off. You know, I've got my balance, I'm fine. He's just running. And then I realized that I'm gonna have to get off this horse with stopping wet crotch. Oh my god. You know, the the first crotch in the world, right? But because they're cowboys, right? I you know, so I got off this horse, and because they're cowboys, nobody said a word. We rode back to the stable in the truck together, not a word was said. Never brought up. That was the end of my daughter as a jockey. Yeah. That might be a buzzkill. You have talked about Trisha peeing her pants twice.

SPEAKER_01

No, the fact that Patricia McConnell's admitting on public radio. Love it.

SPEAKER_03

We can change what is that movie? If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Patricia McConnell.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, awesome. Another claim to fame.

SPEAKER_01

I love it. I love it. Well, here at the Behavior Buzz, we know that you are all busy bees who live and die by the science like we do. So we'll put any references from today's show on the website. So buzz on over to the Honeypot page to find those. And our listeners can go to Dr. McConnell's website, which is www.patricia McConnell.com, and learn more about the book, where to pre-order it, and when and where she will be on book tour starting February 24th in Spring Green, Wisconsin. So go buy this book. I promise you, you will not be disappointed. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03

Patricia, thank you so much for joining us today. We laughed so hard. Potato loved it. I loved it, Amy loved it, we all loved it. The audience is gonna love it. We love your new book. We're honored that we can be a part of this marketing campaign. Uh, we love hearing your stories. Um, we also have Peter Pants, I'm sure, at some point.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'll tell you what, you guys come to Wisconsin, and I guarantee you eventually we'll start laughing hard enough that we'll probably end our welcome anytime. It's a date. And thank you for having me. It's really, truly a pleasure. It's been just incredibly fun. It's been really fun.

SPEAKER_03

It has been so much fun. So go buy Patricia's book. Celebrate my birthday. That's right.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you to our premium sponsor, PRN PharmaCal, the makers of Reconcile. Reconcile is an FDA-approved drug for the treatment of canine separation anxiety in conjunction with the behavior modification plan. PRN PharmaCal is committed to meeting the evolving needs of modern veterinary medicine and dedicated to developing products to strengthen the bond between pets and their people. And HiveMind, we want to thank you especially because without listeners like you, we would have nothing to buzz on about. So grab a drink, some caffeine, or a mocktail, and join us next time for cocktails and conversations. Follow us on all our socials. Facebook at Behavior Buzz, Instagram at BehaviorBuzz, and our website, behaviorbuzz.com. Be positive. Be informed. Now, Buzz.

SPEAKER_02

I really thought you stopped and you were telling me a story. And I was like, okay, I guess we're not recording right now. I guess I'll just listen to your story. I was so confused. I love it. See what happens when we rest. I know, I was like, wow, that's not written anywhere.

SPEAKER_00

I love it.

SPEAKER_04

That's a wrap.