Behavior Buzzzzzz with 2 Amys

Lifestyle Support for Complex Pets

• ft. E’Lise Christensen, DVM, DACVB & Ursa Acree, CDBC, CPDT-KA • Season 2 • Episode 20

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Some pets don’t fit neatly into a single diagnosis – and neither do their treatment plans. Join the Amys and their dynamic guests, Board-Certified Veterinary Behaviorist Dr. E’Lise Christensen and Certified Dog Behavior Consultant Ursa Acree, to discuss their innovative Complex Pets Program, which is designed to support animals with interwoven medical and behavioral needs. They discuss what makes a case “complex,” why collaborative care is essential, and how bridging behavior and medicine can change outcomes for pets and their people. 

Dr. Christensen and Ursa share how their program creates a structured, compassionate approach for families who may feel overwhelmed, unheard, or stuck. This conversation is a thoughtful look at truly wholistic pet care – where behavior, pain, chronic disease, stress, and environment all matter. And a reminder that even the most complicated cases deserve clarity, teamwork, and hope.

Whether you’re a veterinary professional or a deeply devoted pet parent, this episode offers insight, validation, and practical takeaways for navigating complexity with confidence. It’s time to grab a cocktail, and get up to speed on the latest buzzzzzz, courtesy of your favorite VBees 🐝🐝, on the latest episode of Behavior Buzzzzzz with 2 Amys veterinary behavior podcast.



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Thank you to our amazing sponsors:
PRN Pharmacal, makers of Reconcile®
Nestlé Purina PetCare, makers of Purina Pro Plan® Veterinary Diets & Purina Pro Plan® Veterinary Supplements
Malena DeMartini, Inc. founder, Certified Separation Anxiety Training (CSAT) & Mission POSSIBLE
Ceva Animal Health, makers of ThunderEase® & FELIWAY® products

Amy L. Pike, DVM, DACVB, IAABC-CDBC - Co-Host
Amy Learn, VMD, DACVB, IAABC-CABC - Co-Host
Teryn Blais, Executive Producer

SPEAKER_03

Beep beep. Beep beep beep. Yeah, John loves outtakes, so um just keep listening at the end. There's gonna be all kinds of fun things that happen there.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome, Hive Mind. We are buzzing with excitement about today's guests. We have Dr. Elise Christensen Bell and Ursa Aikri. Dr. C is a Cornell-trained veterinary behaviorist and every high school parent's nightmare, a pet psychiatrist. Brilliant struggling animals are the only puzzles that she wants to solve. Dr. C is joining us to talk about her new adventures in the field of veterinary behavior medicine with Ursa. Ursa is a certified dog behavior consultant and certified dog behavior consultant with over 20 years working with the toughest behavioral cases. She founded Canis Major Training in Denver, managed behavior programs for the Kentucky Humane Society and the Dumb Friends League. She did behavior research with Hill's Pet Nutrition and was the onset trainer for the AKC's All Kinds Super Bowl campaign this past February. I am your co-host, Dr. Amy Pike, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist. And I love that Dr.

SPEAKER_03

Christensen was every high school parent's nightmare. I don't think that's the reason. I don't think that's the reason. I think there's probably other nefarious reasons that we were just not maybe gonna cover on today's podcast. There's some secrets, some skeletons in the clubs of another podcast episode. 100%. And I am your other co-host, Dr. Amy Lern, also a board-certified veterinary behaviorist. Um we're so excited for you to be our guests on this podcast. I we're already having fun. I think this episode is gonna be fun in so many different ways. We're gonna love talking to you. And I am so interested in this new thing that you are creating, this new format that you're rolling out so that we can um kind of talk about supporting pet parents. We are rolling out a new format for our podcast, so there's gonna be all kinds of different fun slip-ups and mistakes. That's just gonna be fun from every avenue. We're here for it. Yay! Excellent. York guinea pigs. Oh my goodness. So, of course, everybody knows that we are coming to you live from the PRN PharmaCal Studios. Hey, do you guys know what PRN stands for? Uh, yeah, Perimenopausal raised raise. Uh I don't actually think that's what it stands for, though. That is true. That is true. And also should be investigated further, but but that's not really what PRN stands for. It's actually a Latin phrase meaning as the circumstance arises. And do you know how long the veterinary community has been trusting PRN PharmaCal to be here when needed, with industry-leading research and innovative products to improve animal health and quality of life?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, since 1978, they've been at it as long as NASA has had female astronauts. Isn't that cool?

SPEAKER_03

Woman power. I know I think we are, yeah, women, pyramidoponal rage. We're talking about all kinds of girl problems.

SPEAKER_01

Right?

SPEAKER_03

Equality. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01

PRN Pharmacal is a proud sponsor of the Behavior Buzz podcast and is committed to the physical and emotional health of animals everywhere, which makes sense why their slogan is PRN Pharmacal here when you need us. Nice.

SPEAKER_03

So let's get started by finding out what's getting us all buzzed today. I was doing some searching. I was trying to stay on theme, but then I got a little distracted because then I looked up like them cocktails and then went down a rabbit hole. And so I found the devil's margarita. And I was like, I love it. That's calling my name, I think I'm for sure. That's what I'm gonna have. I'm having that one. And that is just simply lime juice, simple syrup, tequila with red wine. Oh, that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01

That's a weird combo.

SPEAKER_03

It is.

SPEAKER_01

How is it? It's delicious. Oh, nice, nice, nice. I'm drinking one that has kind of similar ingredients. It's actually called the Hot Flesh, uh, which I thought appropriate for my parametapazal rage. Um, it's also made with blanco tequila, lime juice, orange juice, muddled jalapenos, and a tahine rim. What about you, Elise and Ursa? What are y'all drinking?

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's, you know, morning here. So I couldn't do the whole bus thing. So I have a mocktail. I decided, I couldn't decide. I was like, should I be on theme and make a really complex one, or should be also on theme by making complexity simple? So I just went with this lovely hibiscus ginger beer. Oh, pretty. Rimmed with a salty hibiscus combination and um crushed ice and a little bit of lime. That looks like it's a little bit. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. It has no name. I'm just gonna call it the Wednesday morning. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01

And save it for tonight, and you can have the Wednesday night with some vodka in it.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Or tequila, since that's the theme. Yeah. But evidently. Sounds great.

SPEAKER_02

What about you, Ursa? You know, I'm gonna be the boring one today uh because it is morning. Um, I am drinking a double espresso with oat milk. Um, but it's out of my favorite mug. It inspires me. It says the hell I won't. So that's the energy I'm gonna bring. But that's perfect. If I were to choose a cocktail cocktail, it would be a Corpse Survivor number two. Oh, which is gin, Lilla Blanc, and lemon juice in absinthe. So delicious.

SPEAKER_01

We'll have to try that.

SPEAKER_02

That sounds amazing. Maybe I'll have one later in honor of the podcast when it's when it's happy hour here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's five o'clock anywhere sometime. True. That is true.

SPEAKER_02

It's five o'clock anywhere sometime. Sometime.

SPEAKER_03

At any point in time, it's five o'clock. Clearly, I've had too much to drink already. So I want a t-shirt that's missing. Oh my gosh, remember Hive Mind. You can find all of our signature cocktail and mock tile recipes on our website. That's behaviorbuzz.com. Behaviorbuzz with a half a dozen C's. So many Zs. I'm out. I can't think of any more Z words, so I just came up. So let's dive into our actual conversation. Enough fooling around you hooligans. Several. What I would like to know, I want to start with um uh each of us kind of getting to know you guys a little bit better. So, Dr. C, how and when did you decide that you wanted to be a veterinarian and a behavior specialist? I know the story, and I'm so excited for everybody else to know too.

SPEAKER_00

I hope I remember what story I told you.

SPEAKER_01

So to truth say a lie.

SPEAKER_00

I know, right? So I always wanted to be veterinarian as soon as I met my first veterinarian, which was an old-time country vet that saw my first dog. He did a magic trick, he saw my dog, and I was like, this is it, this is the job for me. And I was probably like, I don't know, four or something. But I decided to become a veterinary behaviorist when I was 16. And I remember the day I left class early because I finished a vocabulary test before everybody else, and I was bored. And I went to the library because that's how I rolled in high school. That's one of the reasons everybody hated to be my parent, going to the library all the time. And I read a book that's very, very dated now that I wouldn't recommend from a standpoint of modern behavior, but it really tied into the what I was seeing in general practice when I was, you know, cleaning kennels like all veterinarians our age did, right? And that was that behavior problems were a huge part of practice. The clinician I worked with hated them. And he worked on them very diligently, but he, you know, in the back, he was like, oh man, so many behavior things. And so when I read that book, I was like, this is it. I'm gonna do this. And then I just never looked back, uh, probably because I'm neurodivergent. And once I'm getting stuck on one thing, I'm like, and that's the thing, right? And then I just did that. So from 16 on, it was veterinary behavior or bust.

SPEAKER_01

So crazy that you knew that early on.

SPEAKER_00

I love it.

SPEAKER_01

It is crazy. I love it. Well, Ursa, you've done a lot in your time too. You've done shelter behavior work, uh, behavior research with Hills. You built a training facility from the ground up. And this year you were the onset trainer for the AKC's Super Bowl campaign. How did all of that lead you to focus now specifically on complex behavioral cases?

SPEAKER_02

Man, I maybe I'm the opposite of the laser focus of Elise. I like to do everything. Um, so I've been in the field for about 25 years now. And I got in because I took a puppy that I adopted uh when I moved out of my parents' house to a training class, and the trainer was like, You seem pretty good at this. Do you want to like be my assistant? And I had plans to go to school to study astrophysics. Oh little left hand there. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, that sounds like a fun hobby. And instead, it became my career. So I I spent about nine years, eight and a half, nine years in shelter behavior. And man, I feel like that is just the best place to, you know, experience a wide variety of behavior issues. And as we all know, shelters have very limited resources. So you have to do a lot with very little, right? Um, so it's almost like the worst case scenario of trying to change behavior. Um, so everything else in comparison just seems, I don't want to say easy because it's not, but just very less less hard. Yeah, yeah, not straightforward. Yeah. So I just, you know, because I have uh done so many different things, I like to take opportunities, right? Like I just love to experience different things. I love to learn new stuff, I love a challenge. And, you know, the the thing is I keep coming back to working with people with really severely behaviorally challenged pets. And part of that is because I actually really like working with people. So I know a lot of trainers get into the field because they're like, I want to work with dogs. I hate people. I hate people. I I love working with people. And when I have had phases in my career where that wasn't a part of the equation, it didn't do it for me as much. So, you know, having worked with Dr. Hussi now for gosh, what, six years now, five years? Yeah, a long time. Um and, you know, having a lot of experience with these really complex, challenging cases that have a lot of factors and you know, the owners are kind of at their wits' end and a lot of the time feels like I'm the last stop for them. Um that's so meaningful to me. Like that is such an important purpose for me and and what I know. And it's just the the the highest purpose that I can think of to use what I've learned and what I know is, you know, helping people that feel like they're in crisis, really. So um, but yeah, and then the Super Bowl thing, I have a connection in marketing, and they were doing this campaign for the AKC. This is last year. I guess we actually filmed it on a year and a half ago. And um, I was just like, yeah, of course I'll do that. That sounds super fun. That's cool. I love that. And it was and all the dogs were friendly, and I got to touch them all, which never happens, right? I know. So, yeah, anytime I get an opportunity like that, where it's like, oh, all the dogs want you to pet them, I'm like, yeah, I'll be there. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03

I love that. And you guys do come from kind of two different training paths. Doctors, see, you're on one side evaluating pets for medical conditions and all the things that kind of affect behavior, recommending diagnostics, evaluating their health, prescribing medications, right? All the stuff that we do in the doctor world. Well, Ursa, you're in the living room at home with everybody, right? Teaching the dog, coaching the humans, like in the in the war zone. How did you guys decide to build things together, right? And and what does that collaboration look like?

SPEAKER_00

For me, you know, I I did some training before and during vet school. And then obviously I took this as direct a path as I could to becoming an animal psychiatrist. And what I found over the years is as much as I love training and behavior modification, and I love being creative with behavior modification plans, is that it just isn't the best use of the client's money and time and effort to rely on me as their dog psychiatrist to support them with the coaching they need throughout the week on the behavior modification front. And I can't set up a practice that would pay my bills where I could be available to my clients in person doing their behavior modification. It just isn't rational. So, what I really think is the most helpful for my clients is for them to focus their time with me, not on rearranging their behavior mod, et cetera, although I do get them started with that, but instead to rely on an expert behavior consultant that knows how to work with a veterinary behaviorist, how to track behaviors, not you know, diagnosing things or prescribing meds, but knows when different meds should work, right? That kind of thing, and knows when the client should be reaching back out. So they're really my friend at the factory on helping these clients get the best results so that when clients are hiring me, I can focus on what literally nobody else can do, which is the veterinary psychiatry part of it. Are we using meds? Are we using supplements? Have we really thoroughly evaluated diagnostics for medical problems? Have we implemented treatment for those medical problems? And if not, how can I support the family and the veterinarian to getting those things done over time, if not right away? So that way when clients are spending time and effort with me, they're getting the most out of the brain that they hired and able to pair that with another brain where they're able to get the most out of what they hired with them. So for me as a clinician, I really strongly feel like I hear from my clients that are working with expert behavior consultants along with a veterinary behaviorist, they feel more supported, they get faster improvements. And what I always want to do in my practice is graduate these clients as soon as possible, right? I am always looking for speed because that's how my brain works. So I really get excited when I see a patient and three months later, they're stable, ready to graduate, right? So I love working with somebody like Ursa. And because of that, the more I work with behavior consultants intimately with these cases, and you know, I have for a really long time, I was really noticing that there's all these things that clients really just can't learn because there's so much they're learning from scratch without having somebody hold their hands. And it's not just the behavior modification, it's how to maintain a lifestyle over time with these complex pets. And it's not just sort of like the emotional support and you know, do we need a human animal bond type therapy thing? Like that's great, and they should have that. That's not what I do, it's not what Ursa does, although we do provide a lot of support. What they really also need help with is just the mechanics of how can I make this lifestyle work for me and work for my pet best. And I just really love doing that with them because a lot of times they have accidentally made their life a lot harder than it needs to be. And so we can come back and say, look, this is legitimately difficult, but doesn't have to be this difficult. Let's backtrack and really evaluate what's going to support you as a family. And that I just I love it so much. It I can see families feeling so much better, so much more supported, and able to just take a deep breath for a long time. You know, they haven't been able to for a really long time. So that's one of the reasons that I was I've been cooking on this idea for a long time. And Urs and I were talking about it as we worked together for the last few years and finally we're like, let's just try it. Like, what do we have to lose? Right. I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But uh Amy and I completely agree. And I mean, that's why we've structured our practice similarly, and that that hands-on support is so, so, so important. Um that we we just don't have the time to do. Not the it's not that we don't have the knowledge or the, you know, the skill level, it's that we just don't have the time. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and for me, it's a no-brainer in terms of like, you know, as someone who takes on cases that a lot of trainers don't want, right? Because of the complexity, because of things that are like medical or physical factors that are complicating things. And to have, you know, a vet behaviorist as part of my client's team, right? Because I'm not qualified to diagnose, I'm not qualified to recommend medication, I'm not qualified to suggest diagnostics, other than like, hey, maybe you should talk to like this type of doctor. And so to have someone that I can be like, she knows all of that. So you should go to her and she'll take care of that side. Because if we don't get those things figured out, no amount of behavior modification is going to make much progress, right? If there's a some sort of physiological complicating factor, we've got we've got to get that teased out so that we can actually get a foothold with the the B mod. And so having somebody to do all that is invaluable to me as a behavior consultant.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, let's talk about those people that you're trying to reach. Um, you guys use the phrase amazing pet people with complex pets. Who are your clients and what does their daily life actually look like for them?

SPEAKER_02

So, you know, when we say amazing pet people, what we are talking about is like those devoted people who are uh dedicated to uh managing their pet's life, to trying to improve the pet's quality of life, to finding, you know, uh if not solutions, then at least ways to make things better, even though they are at the end of their rope. Right. I have a client who just said the other day, I'm pouring and pouring and pouring into my dog and I'm getting almost nothing back. And she doesn't say that because she doesn't love her dog, she's doing it because she loves her dog, but she's also exhausted.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

She's uh she's out of gas uh for this. And that's someone amazing, right? Someone who is caring for this living thing to their detriment, right? And sacrificing a lot to make this animal's life better. And doing so willingly. You know, she didn't say this with bitterness. She was just like, man, this is hard. And to me, that's someone amazing. And it's not about, you know, uh what how fancy the dog food is or if they go to the dog park every day or is the best doggy daycare or whatever. It's about them making these sacrifices to try to make their dog's life better and uh trying to to learn as much as they can to do it the right way, right? So, you know, uh these amazing pet people with complex pets, and you know, the complex pets are the ones with layered behavior problems that don't get better with, you know, sort of the typical approach that foundational training probably isn't gonna help, or maybe the first meds that are prescribed don't really help that much. But a lot of the time daily life for them is a slog, you know, it's the same issues over and over and over again where they're just trying to keep a grip on things, or like they're trying to do their best to keep things manageable. Uh, but a lot of the time that grip feels very tenuous. Yeah. And it's exhausting. It's mentally, emotionally, and physically exhausting to live with a pet like this. So, you know, those are the kinds of people that we are trying to reach to help them understand, like, you know, like Elise said earlier, it maybe doesn't have to be this hard all the time. There's probably not going to be a quick fix for the behavior problems that you're you're dealing with, but there are things that you can do to make it feel not so hard every single day.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. And it's hard for us too, right? Like we also get frustrated. We want to help them. We I and I'm speaking for you guys, but I'm I'm I assume that you feel the same way. I wish that there were like eight of me, right? Like I can one of me is gonna take care of the medications and the supplements, and one of me is gonna work on the training plan, and one of me is gonna be that social emotional support, and one of me is gonna, right? Oh, yeah, there's no, I can't, there's not that many of me. And so having this uh, it takes a village, having this support system, this team to work together so that we're meeting all of those needs, medical, physical, emotional support, you know, is really an important part of this. So, you know, that looks like what you guys are creating. I want to know more about the complex pet partnership. What is it? You know, how are you meeting those needs? Tell me, tell me more.

SPEAKER_00

Well, what we're doing is, you know, to your point about like, I wish there were more of me. Like in so many ways there was sort of like doing so many of me. But what I is just on ouch drinking. Yeah. Can I just have my cocktail and I don't know, watch it's creepy. But um what I was noticing in practice was there was so much information that, you know, I've been doing dog behavior in some way, shape, and form since I started training dogs for the like teenage drug abuse unit when I was like 14, right? Like, so you know, when you've been like doing stuff, whether you were good at it or I thought I was good at it, but I was 16, it was not that good. You were good. You were pretty good. Um I thought it was amazing, but you know, like many young trainers, I also just had a really amazing dog who made me look really good. Um, but you know what? I all of that, you know. Those many years of experience, you can't deliver that information in a way that people can absorb in an appointment, even the way I do appointments, which is like every two to four weeks, right? And get all the information you need to track the behaviors. How are we really doing side effects? If we're using medications, all that stuff, but you can't do it all the same time. So, this program, since we've got six weeks together, we have it staged out to really help people that are managing these complex pets take the lifestyle management and systematize it so they can get it into their regular life without feeling like they're throwing spaghetti at the wall. Because, you know, for people like us that have been doing this a long time, that have had complex pets ourselves and supported all different types of families, we have a lot of, you know, quote unquote wisdom, right? Like so this program really allows us to support families in doing that. And it's especially important for families that are either DIYing it completely or are working with maybe their GP, their general practitioner, and a trainer, but really having a hard time learning how to be the glue for their complex pet. And that makes sense because they can't possibly know how to do that. They really need explicit instruction. And um, the good news is that those skills are not hard to learn if you have somebody that truly loves people and knows what they are going through. So our goal is to help these families find and be safe in an environment with other people that are going through the same things that is supervised and encouraged by experts. So they're not running off into scary forests, right? Because that's really, really common for our clients because they're going down every possible rabbit hole that they can find to solve these problems and really setting them up so that, you know, hopefully their pet is getting better and then their lives together can just be more fun. Because it's one of the things that I see as a clinician is that because the situations are so high stakes, is that clients come to every interaction and everything they think about with so much pressure and fear of failure and even feeling like for sure it's gonna fail, like not even fear of failure, but deterministic will fail. I don't even know why I'm trying. So giving them a space to feel safe and then learn that they can make things simpler and lighten up and have fun, and that that can actually improve their success rates. But it's really impossible to do that level of in-depth coaching in appointments and then also do the regular work that we're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01

It's so true. And and like we had a client this week, it was our first recheck, but she was just like I mean, she was just so profoundly like overwhelmed about everything. But she was like, you know, the biggest thing that you gave me is you didn't blame me for this. 100% because she had been blamed before, like, and so it's like I really appreciate that. Like, that is yeah, you know, if we can provide that for you, that's awesome. That's half.

SPEAKER_02

It always makes me so sad because I hear clients say, Oh, my vet or my past trainer or whatever made me feel like this is my fault. And whether or not, like I know that sometimes clients hear what they want to hear, and sometimes it's not exactly verbatim, but regardless, they felt that, right? So whatever happened between them and that other provider, they felt blamed. And it always makes me so sad because I understand that feeling, like as a parent, as a you know, a dog parent, just a human that was raised by heathens but still somehow has a lot of Catholic guilt. Uh I I totally empathize with that. And, you know, I think probably my number one goal is for my clients to feel supported, not blamed. Yeah, right. Like I am not going to make them feel guilty because they're here working with us. Like that is such a small elite percentage of pet parents, right, that seek this kind of help. Like you're already doing the most, right? And just because you haven't always done it right, like you're getting better as you learn more, and that is something to be celebrated, right? And recognized.

SPEAKER_01

So like they they feel like they're failing, right? And so, I mean, other than maybe they misheard, or maybe they truly were told um that it was their blame, where do you think that shame comes from? And like, how do you guys address that before you even start teaching the dog anything?

SPEAKER_02

Pressure. I mean, I think we hear all of this messaging about what pet ownership is supposed to look like and what it's supposed to be like, and we hear it from social media and we hear it from our families and our friends. I I have this image in my head all the time, and I can't remember who to attribute it to. Someday I'll find it again. But it was uh an image of a bell curve, right? So, like, you know, big peak in the middle. And it was like on one side of the bell curve are dogs that don't like any other dogs, right? And then on the other side of the bell curve are dogs that like every dog they meet. And the vast majority are here in the middle. But and they're selective, just like humans, right? They choose who they want to spend their time with. But we, the ones we see in public are the ones that like every other dog, right? Those are the ones that people take out into the world, and that's what we see, and that's what we assume every dog is supposed to be like.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02

That those dogs that are just social butterflies, happy to be here, love everyone. And I think that pressure that is put on us by this pet, you know, centric society that we live in creates the guilt when our dog can't go to the dog park, when they can't go sit at the brewery, when they can't meet everybody that comes into the home. We feel like, oh, we've failed because look at all these dogs that are friendly and mine's not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

To me, I I I see a lot of a parallel between that and parenting human children, right? Totally. And especially, are we all parents? Are you guys both parents? Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. So, right, and especially as mothers, I feel like. Yeah. Historically, mom guilt. There's so much mom guilt. It's to me, it's not dissimilar.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02

I would exactly agree.

SPEAKER_01

Because our kids are on that spectrum too, right? It's like some are perfect angels, perfection from the get-go, most in the middle. And then other ones, you know, whether it be due to like neurodivergency or you know, other issues. They're having a bad day. Yeah, they're having a bad day. They're being humans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but there's so much judginess. It's like if our kids aren't perfect, that reflects on what we did as a parent. Right. And, you know, I think we get the same with our pets. Like, I, you know, I just see so much on social media of next door is a great example, right? Oh gosh, yeah. And it's kind of a cesspool, but I'll see please on next door from people that are like, please, can we not do fireworks? My dog is terrified of fireworks. Could everybody please tone down the fireworks? And inevitably there will be comments about like, well, it's your fault for not training your dog. And it's like, it's not like that. It's not that simple. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I wish it was. Man, so I know. I wish it was. I think that's one of the things that we spend time on in the very beginning of our um work with Complex Pet Partnership when people first join is the first week or two. We're really spending time kind of clear, I mean, it sounds really woo, but like cleaning the space up, getting not just the mental space, but yes, that, but also just the environment. Like how much stuff do you have that when you look at it makes you feel crappy, right? Stuff that you've tried before, you got a big pile of it, it's dusty, it's gross, covered in dog hair. And whenever you look at it, you remember a really bad time. Like we just go through and we just get rid of all of that crap, right? We reorganize it. Like get it out of there, right? Take pictures of anything so that if you need to show it to a practitioner, they know what you had, right? Because that's so helpful for us because clients don't always know what it was. They're like, oh, I had this thing and I don't know, it looked like this, right? So take pictures of it and you know, we talk to people about how to organize it, depending on how that works for them. And we do the same for any medications or supplements. Let's get pictures of it. Let's make sure we know what doses you tried. If you remember, take a picture of the label. How are we going to organize it? And now, if you are not using it, how are we going to get rid of it? Then we go through things like, hey, is there anything that you might feel you would lose if this got better?

SPEAKER_05

Right?

SPEAKER_00

Like, is there any part of you that's a um being served by this problem? Because it's not meant to be like, uh, well, no wonder. It's not a gotcha. It's just like, let's just admit, like sometimes there are reasons that we aren't able to do the stuff that's in front of us as far as a task. And the problem or the concern is actually a lot more interesting than we might have given it credit for. And it's worth just like digging into that a little bit. So we do a lot of just clearing out some space before we even get started. Okay, now how are we gonna make a system that works for you? Is that Marshall?

SPEAKER_03

Oh my God, I was just gonna say that. You cut into my you cut into my new my little quid. So I was gonna say this could revolutionize the way we treat our pets because my dog is gated out of my room right now so that he doesn't become a clusterfuck in the middle of this interview, and he is staring at me, whining to get in the room so he can climb in my lap, which he can't do because he'll totally f up the microphone and everything. So he's just sitting there going, I know he doesn't have to go out. I let him out literally right before this this uh podcast.

SPEAKER_04

And he's just like, me so much. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03

So anyway, back to the interview. Does anybody want a 95-pound 10-year-old Pipple? Because he's he's free. He's free silent. He's free. It's like I threw a shoe at him earlier to like just like do anything. Yeah, like stop. And he's like, nope, I don't care. You can throw whatever. Throw a weight at me, shoot me with a gun. I don't care. Step on my neck. Sorry so much on the movie. So you guys, you guys, the the guests on the show, you people are both clear that this program is coaching, yeah, not Marshall, um, is coaching and education, not veterinary behavior treatment. Why is that line so important? You know, why do we want to differentiate between those two categories? And how do you help people that you are helping understand what falls on each side of that?

SPEAKER_02

Well, for one thing, we can't establish a VCPR this way. So, you know, Dr. C doesn't have a veterinary client patient relationship with these folks, so she can't prescribe and treat, right? So that's off the table. And then, you know, from my perspective, we're gonna have a really diverse group of people in terms of what behavior issues they're dealing with. And so even though I think that, you know, a lot of the time we can do things that help a wide range of behavior issues, we can't really dig down into the specifics if like someone shows up with a dog with resource guarding and one has intra-household aggression, and one has screaming reactivity, and you know, those are all going to be treated somewhat differently. And so we're not here for that because that would really get us into the weeds and it wouldn't be helping everyone in the group, right?

SPEAKER_00

It's a different program. It's a different program.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. Um it's about strengthening their relationship with their dog, teaching them how to advocate, teaching them how to get all of their providers and their team on board and working together so that they have all the scaffolding that they need to be successful with these behavior issues that they're dealing with, right? We know what it's like, both firsthand and secondhand, through all of our clients to live with pets with behavior issues. And, you know, again, we have tools that we can provide people to make it suck less, right? So that it doesn't have to be as hard and help them challenge their assumptions about what they think they have to be doing or what they should be doing, and really get down to like what's helpful to be doing, what makes their life better, what makes their dog's life better, aside from directly treating these behavior issues, like what is going to make living with your pet a little more joyful and a little less overwhelming and frustrating. So that's the piece that we're here for that I think historically has been really neglected. You know, it's it's a slog and it's expected to be a slog and you're expected just to, I guess, do it and not feel the way about it, right? Right again, just like parenting. It's like, well, you have to do it, so suck it up, right? And and like we're here to tell people you don't have to suck it up. Like it's okay to acknowledge that it sucks. It's okay to acknowledge that it's hard. It's okay to acknowledge I'm pouring into my dog and I'm not getting anything back. Like those are real feelings. And the more you stuff them inside the box and ignore them, like you're not doing anybody a service doing that. Like it's okay to acknowledge that. And it's not just about feelings, it's also about actionable things that you can do to again just make things get down to what's actually helping you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And like we even spend time, I know you guys have talked about this on the podcast before, making sure that people are able to evaluate like who are the people in their lives that talking about this situation with is gonna help them, bring them energy, bring them support. And who is not a good call, right? And giving family scripts, people scripts about how to manage those people who really just are not good for that client to deal with with their pet and working through the negotiations of social uh situations so that they just like they're so they feel like they have a plan, they're not alone with it, they can practice it. And again, just every place we can think of how can we make this easier and more systematized so that it's like you get in the car, you put on your seatbelt, you just do it, you don't think about it because you have practice and you know how to do it now. You don't feel like you're just fluttering in the wind trying to find an answer. That's great.

SPEAKER_01

I love that they must feel so supported. This is wonderful. And now you guys have actually built some tools too for this program. So walk us through some of the ones you're most proud of. Oh my gosh. Uh we can't stop making stuff.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, I had a thing. We gotta do this. The things that, you know, the thing that I focus on a lot when we actually the the first thing that we created is called a behavior care tracker. And it's on my website. You can get like the simpler version. It's free, right? We have a more complex version that we use in the complex pet partnership. My goal was, and we'll have better ways of doing this in the future too, but clients don't know, even with explicit verbal instruction, what information their veterinary behaviorist needs to change their plan and support their pet best. And a lot of times, if their general practitioner is managing their medications and supplements and diet and all that stuff, their general practitioner also doesn't know what they need to ask to change a plan, right? And have it move forward. Like making a first step plan for a behavior case is not hard. It's when things are not working well enough or there's side effects that people get lost, right? Well, that happens pretty quickly unless you have an easy case, right? So we made a behavior care plan tracker so that we could solve the problem of people getting concise information to their care team in real time and having their care team connected in real time versus I go to see my behavior consultant, they tell me something, then I talk to my vet, I tell them what the behavior consultant said, then I tell my behavior consultant what the vet said. The client who's not prepared to be the middle person is now the new person, and they're delivering information to two different professionals, and those professionals are relying on what the clients think they heard, which we know isn't always accurate because they can't possibly remember everything, right? So the care plan tracker allows everybody on the care team to connect in real time about what behaviors are we working on, what medication, supplements, diets are we using, and to, and the more complex version also tracks how behaviors are changing over time as we change medications and treatments. So that one for me is the basics of what I'm trying to create longer term in an easier-to-do format as we get more and more um technologically advanced. You know, by me, I mean me, right? So that is so helpful for me. It it's it works best for clients who are willing to do a spreadsheet because right now it's in a spreadsheet. But long term, it won't have to be because we'll be able to use more conversational approaches to get the data organized and um systematized for everybody to see. The other one that I really love is this time energy tracker. And what it does is it helps clients go through their days with their pets and in different increments of time, depending on the client, marking down like, hey, what is it that I'm doing or that my animal's doing? And is that giving me energy or taking energy from me or is it neutral? And is it looking like something my pet is excited and happy to do? Is it neutral for them, or is it actually a problem for them? Right. And then we compare, right? If we've got lots of reds, like I'm red and my dog is red, is that something that we have to do? Right. Do we have to do that? A lot of times we don't, right? But because these families are very intense, high ethics, very concerned and supportive of their animal's quality of life, they are literally going through a checklist of like 50 things that amazing pet people do, but they're actually not things that amazing pet people need to do. What they are is a list of things. So that time energy approach really allows people to see visually and to critically evaluate what's actually working for both of them. Because again, that's where we can make things simpler because accidentally it might be making their lives harder.

SPEAKER_02

One of my favorite moments as a behavior consultant is when I can say to my client, like, do you want to just not do that? And you're like, oh my God. Yeah. Like the permission to not walk. Can I not do that? Can I not introduce the dog to my entire family when they come visit for the holidays? Like, I cannot do that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I have a couple favorite tools too. Um, mine are a little more like soft skills. I love um when clients are willing to track data because I do think it helps keep things clean and objective to some degree, um, which helps with especially if we need to troubleshoot a behavior plan, that can be super, super helpful. But I also really love tools that help the human in moments when they're struggling. And one of my favorites that we put together is what we call our hard day first aid kit. And it's basically like a little graphic with a first aid kit for when you're having a really bad day with your dog. And so it's like, what can you do to stop the bleeding? What can you do to treat the wound? What can you do, you know, to start healing? And they can kind of just pick what they need right then. So it's not about like adding another thing to their list, it's not about making any progress or changing anything with their behavior plan. It's just about like, what do you need today to make things just feel a little bit better, to stop the bleeding, right? And I really like that because sometimes I think people get so just overwhelmed that they don't think about like pausing for a moment and giving themselves a little like first aid, basically. Um, and then it get, you know, if they do that for long enough, it gets to the point where they're they can't, you know, they they can't, it's it's too big for that now. Yeah. So, you know, our goal is to help clients use this as needed all the time so that they can sustain their efforts.

SPEAKER_00

So you can recover because like these, these managing these guys, there's so many peaks and valleys, right? And so it this the constant emotional roller coaster without a plan for the human to recover is a huge potential negative prognostic indicator. So we just tell them slap this sucker on your fridge or someplace where you'll see it if you need it. And you can just pick from this menu of things that will help you recover. And during the course, we you know walk through for people as individuals, like, hey, you know, they don't have to share anything they don't want to with us, but like, hey, as you're looking at this, is there anything that feels like it would work for you? Circle it, you know, like so it's easy to find when you're feeling really emotionally dysregulated.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. The other one that I really like is one that we call the advocacy compass. And it's basically like a little script for clients when they feel like they are being dismissed or not being heard, or they're not exactly sure how to speak up for themselves or for their dog. And so it's sort of like, hey, if you disagree or you feel uncertain about something, like here's some things that you can say. When you feel dismissed, hear some things that you can say. When you need more information, here's some things. So it's helpful for folks who either might be feeling unsure or might be conflict averse, where it's like, I don't want to say something that's gonna make somebody upset. It gives them a little bit of confidence to advocate for themselves and their dog with their providers in a way that is collaborative, not you know, defensive or prickly. And I think that can really help for them not just to see some examples of what they can say, but to know that it's okay to do that, right? Like you can speak up for yourself and your dog in a way that doesn't make things feel worse, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And we can like we talk about how to make an emergency kit for your dog and stuff like that too. Like you can keep that little affixy script, the the compass, in your emergency kit. So you can take it with you if you needed to. Any place you're going with your dog, just laminate it, take it with you, and you'd be like, okay, I'm in my car. I'm going into my vet. I'm stressed out. Like I'm not sure my vet really gets what I'm dealing with. I'm going to just review these techniques. It's right here in the bag. I'm in my go bag for my dog, right?

SPEAKER_02

So if you don't own a laminator, you can take a picture of it on your phone.

SPEAKER_00

I could just bring it into the 21st century. If I didn't have books piled on it, I would show you the fact that I have laminating sheets on my desk right now.

SPEAKER_03

Because I have my phone to take pictures with right here in my hand. Always with me. So I love how organized and supportive all of these things are and really accessible, right? That's a buzzword, but also a really important focus. One of your side quests is to help neurodivergent individuals care for their complex pets. Tell us more about how we're able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I mean, I I am surrounded by neurodivergent people and M1. So when I and I, you know, advocate for some neurodivergent kids. And what I have noticed is one, I really love that, which is not surprising because I do the work that I do, right? And if you are working in both of those zones, you'll very quickly see a lot of crossover between managing a complex pet and living with neurodivergent people and being a neurodivergent person. Like environment, we talk about, you know, Urs and I talk about this in um in our own practices, um, you know, how we're setting up environmental accommodations, how we are teaching coping strategies, all things that people that are neurodivergent, if they've had the the privilege of having some support, are familiar with. So I just happen to really love uh working with people that are neurodivergent. Like the other day I had a client that was texting in and it was just coming off like really rude. I was like, why is she being so spicy? And I was like, I wonder if this is just like a really direct person, right? And darn soon we got to the appointment and it was like, yes, three minutes and 30 seconds ago, my dog did blah blah blah. It's like, ah, right? You know, like so so, and then for me, it was so much easier to be like, all right, this is this not client, is not trying to be mean. Like she's just really upset that actually this process that I asked her to do is very inconvenient and kind of a pain in the ass. And I was like, you know what? You're right, it is a pain in the ass, and it's been on my list of fix for like 20 years, right? I'm gonna like escalate it, right? So for me, I I'm my practice is certainly not perfect at this, but we're constantly working to make the delivery of our information easier to access, not just by trying to make it more compatible for people with different brains, but also to make it simpler to read, more fun to take action on. And those are all things that are just constantly moving parts in my practice that I really want to continue to improve. But it's just because I I just love it and I see so many cool things from all of the neurodivergent people that's around me. And I see that people that don't have the experience of learning about autism and ADHD and these um associated comorbidities or co-occurring conditions that can come with them, they're not able to support families that are supporting complex plants in exactly the same way because they just don't have the depth of experience. So I love it because I love complexity. If you don't love complexity, you should never don't be a veterinary behaviorist, right? So so I love it. I love helping um these folks. I love how creative their brains are. And my hope is to continue to be a more and more safe place for families that are managing all of this. Because um, you know, like like Ursa, I'm in this field partially because I love people and I love the human animal bond. I love dogs, I love aggressive dogs. They're so interesting, right? I love aggressive cats, so spicy and fascinating. And I'm like, oh wow, look at you. That was that was a hilarious choice. And um, wow, very smart. Um, but that's gonna we have that's a problem. We're gonna fix that, right? Um, it's very um fulfilling, but also fun because it allows for so much more, invites so much more creativity. So I'm just having a really great time with it. But it's it is actually hard. Like I was working on some like disability access stuff yesterday, and I was like, gosh, this is gonna take me like two days to try to fix this, like two full days of work to try to fix this session, right? And I was like, dang, this is gonna, I'm gonna have to set this like an appointment with myself, right? But you know, we keep working on it. I think, you know, I started doing Brazilian jujitsu like a year ago, and it was the first time as an adult I'd ever tried to learn anything brand new to me. And let me tell you, it hands me my ass every day whenever I go in. I never want to get on the mat because I know I'm gonna feel like an idiot, right? And I'm not gonna know what I'm doing. I've been told many times how to do the thing, I can't remember it, right? And so it's actually been really helpful for me because I'm like, this is what our clients are going through, right? Like they are just starting from scratch, learning something new, and I'm demonstrating something to them that you know, I'm gonna trot off in like 30 seconds about at my usual rate of speech. And they're gonna nod at me like I nod at my professors on the map and be like, mm-hmm. Got it. And no idea.

SPEAKER_02

Not only are they learning something completely new to them, but we expect them to then teach it to their teacher. Right. Yes. That I think about that all the time. I'm like, I I have this green learner and this other green learner, and and we're expecting one to teach the other. Like that requires so much patience, right? We can't just expect them to pick up on it automatically so that they can also then instruct another living creature. Yeah, exactly. No, look, I've been in jujitsu a year. I still can't tie my belt right. Right, right. I, you know, I say this all the time. I think that our profession is one of the few where we're actually expected to teach somebody else how to do our job. Like, I don't go to my hairstylist and ask her how to teach me how to cut my own hair. Right. She does it. And then I walk out and I'm done. I don't take my car to the mechanic and be like, tell me how to change, right? You know, whatever. Um, but my clients are supposed to do my job of changing the behavior of their pet, which is so complex and so hard. That's so true. And you know, I think it it ties to the idea of like supporting neurodivergent, not just really any client, but especially neurodivergent people, of which, you know, I don't have a diagnosis, but like at least I'm surrounded by people that do. Everyone I love does. And I think for me, it's so much about like staying curious, right? And and wanting to understand how my clients uh think and and see the world and process and you know what's compelling for them and what's easy for them, what's hard for them. And it's just like what we do with dogs. Like, I want to be curious about this dog. Like, what makes them tick? What do they love? What do they hate? It's to me, it's just, you know, that curiosity about just other living creatures that aren't me that don't live in my head. It's so enriching to understand how other beings move through the world. And not just important for me to be able to help them, but it's also uh, you know, an honor, I think, to be able to understand that from somebody else's point of view. Like it makes things so much better when we get the privilege of like seeing how somebody else experiences the world. So, you know, just to kind of throw that in there in terms of, you know, I don't have firsthand experience with neurodivergence, but you know, we treat everyone like they're an individual and and try to get to the bottom of like what helps you specifically, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're saying like all that learning, it's also all the unlearning, right? Like whether whether an owner has had normal dogs their whole life, right? And so now they're having to like unlearn, like, okay, my that dog tolerated all this stuff that I'm not supposed to do, right? A hundred percent. The amount of noise out there and in the myths that surround our profession, like the unlearning is really hard. It's real. It's intense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's intense. Yeah, we we take that on in our coaching stuff too, because it's such an important part of feeling good about the work you're doing with Complex Dog is being able to release some of the myths that you know you you that were working, quote unquote, or for you previously. Maybe they were, maybe not, just you got by with it. Um, and now you can't because you have a dog and that really needs you to know. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and it's hard to let go of things that you've internalized. I mean, we know that. We all know that, right? Again, like as parents, as women, like you name it. God, I was a teenager in the 90s and I'll never recover from that. Like, so it's really hard to let go of things you've internalized, even when it's something like, you know, treating your dog a certain way or whatever, like that can be so hard to unpack and let go of and move on from and change your mindset. And I mean, I know we even have research to show that like people have with entrenched views, the more evidence you show, the more entrenched they get, right? In some cases. And so that is such a challenging factor in working with folks who have these sort of like internalized ideas about what the life with their dog should look like or what they should how they should be treating the dog or whatever. Um I had a client the other day that I could see, I was meeting with them virtually, and their dog put their feet up on the desk and they were like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. I can't believe that they did that in front of you. And I was like, I don't care. Yeah, exactly. I know. Like my dog literally eats from my plate, I feed her from my plate when I eat. Yeah, like I don't care. I just want dogs to live a happy life. If it's a problem for you, we can talk about it. Right. But like, in no world is your dog putting their feet on your desk a problem for me that I'm even going to register. Like, yeah, no kidding.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that happens. Unless they're gonna growl at you and bite you. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I don't want your dog to bite you or anyone else. And beyond that, I don't care. Exactly. Let them get on the couch, let them get on the bed, it's all good. Totally, yeah, yeah. So even unlearning stuff like that, that's like relatively harmless, right? Yeah, but still, I'm like, you don't have to worry about it if it doesn't bother you. Truth.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, we talked about a lot of stuff, but if you had one thing that you want to leave with the hive mind, which is our audience, to take away from today's episode, what would that be?

SPEAKER_02

I would say you're not failing your pet, right? Your pet is complex, complexity needs support. You're doing your best, and that is all that anybody can do. So you are not failing your pet.

SPEAKER_00

And I think on top of that is that uh there's never been a better time to be an amazing pet person with a complex pet because there is so much knowledge now. You just have to land in the right spot, right? You just need to connect with the right people. And when you do, you probably see things change so much and you'll feel so much better. I think it's actually a really exciting time to be a person in that position, although, you know, I didn't wouldn't say that people want to walk into that for no reason. Um, for pet professionals and veterinarians that might listen to your podcast, what I would love them to remember is as much as possible to work towards releasing the idea of owner blame for these situations because I hear it so much. And in my veterinary colleagues, sometimes I hear them withholding treatment from these patients because they don't feel like the families have tried hard enough with say exercise or training, right? And that is a a problem because there's no other part of veterinary medicine where we would withhold treatment because the clients are not doing everything we told them to do, right? And the more we blame our clients for not doing stuff, the more resentful and burnout we get. Which is terrible for our profession, our mental health. So the more we can just remember, people are doing the best they can for what they have. I know it's not my not my saying, I don't know where it came from, but it's true. I think the happier we are able to be, right? We can deliver the information, we can encourage them, we can't make anybody do anything. And if they aren't able to do something, let's say they're not able to do it versus they're not doing it. So that we can continue to meet them where they are and encourage them versus getting more angry and more resentful that they're just not doing the thing, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I I would add to that, um, you know, making assumptions about what clients can, can't, will, and won't do. And I say this as a recovering uh person who tells myself stories about everything, right? Like I spent a lot of my life assuming what other people were thinking and feeling about me or whatever, right? And um it doesn't serve you, right? It doesn't serve you, it doesn't serve your client to make assumptions about what they say, you know, about their behavior, what they're again willing to do or able to do. I think it ties back to staying curious, asking, like collaborating. Hey, how does this feel? How does this sound? What do you think about this? What was hard about that? Like what stopped you? Rather than just sort of closing off and assuming, like, oh, well, they just don't feel like it, or they don't want to, or they won't. Um, you know, I hear that language from other trainers. Yeah. And I get it. Like it can totally working with people and pets is frustrating. And there are times where you want to scream and pull your hair out. And I love people and I still feel that way sometimes. But you know, once you get the venting out of the way, I think the praxis of staying curious and being collaborative and and working with what the person is willing to do, you know, being okay with that. Saying, like, okay, they're not willing to try that. So next. Yeah, next thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So if we compare those two things, right. Can we spark some joy? Right. If we compare for families that are managing these complex pets, like, hey, yeah, maybe you've taken some wrong turns, whatever. Like, we can work on it, right? Let's let's change it, let's try some new things. And we compare that with our practitioners, being able to meet them where they are and not blaming them for not being able to do 80 million things, you know, not being able to get on the mat and be a black belt on week seven, right? If we can do that, then we have a lot stronger support for the human animal bond. And that's what keeps our patients in their homes where hopefully they're safe and belong. And then everybody's happy and the world is a better place. Yay.

SPEAKER_05

Yay! Butterflies and rainbows. Unicorns.

SPEAKER_03

100%. So I want to kind of pull back the curtain a little bit and get to know you as people. Um, maybe completely off topic, right? We don't have to kind of even stay focused in the behavior world. But uh, you know, I want you guys to share a story, an anecdote, kind of something that happens in your real life, or even just a question maybe that you wish we had asked.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I once worked, I once worked at a veterinary clinic where every Christmas they had a veterinarian who had a journal that she kept all year of funny things that people said. And then at the the holiday party, they would guess who said what. Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02

And the the that's amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Was really funny. And uh, I showed up in that book so many times. I was like, I said that. I can't, okay. I guess I probably did say that. That's that's cracked. But then, of course, put on the spot, I'm like, I can't come up with anything clever but fun.

SPEAKER_02

My my best friend will be like, uh who uh Elise also knows and we've worked with, she's a trainer as well. She'll be like, oh yeah, remember that funny or clever insightful thing you said. And I'm like, no, I don't actually. That was really smart of me.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Past me was brilliant. Past me was one time. Oh, I do have a funny one. One time I got this letter in the mail when I was working in New York City. It was this like long, glowing letter about how she was so happy she had come to meet me. And, you know, she did everything that I said. Her dog was doing so much better. And then she listed off the things that she thought I said. Oh man, that was totally not what you said. And let me just tell you, no, none of these things. I was like, wow. I mean, it's funny. I'm glad your pet's better. Despite this. But if if you had bet me$20 about this list of things, I would have been like, you're gonna need seven more veterinary behaviorists after that.

unknown

Right?

SPEAKER_00

I was, I I wish I had kept it because I, you know, you know, it should like lured me in with the like, you know, oh, you're so amazing, right? Like, I love my job. I get so much positive reinforcement in my job, I don't get anywhere else, right? So I was like, of course I'm getting a thank you know, because I'm amazing. And then I'm looking through the list. I was like, oh my god though.

unknown

What?

SPEAKER_00

What?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. And that's why I learned to take what people say with a grain of like when a client is like, oh, my other trainer told me, blah, blah, blah. And you know, there was a time where I'd be like, what the fuck? Like, I can't believe it, blah, blah, blah. And now I'm like, okay, that's what you heard. But because I had my my best example is I had a client, it was a family, they adopted a dog, the dog was scared of the husband, just living in the house, scared of the husband. And, you know, we were doing some conditioning, right? Just conditioning to the appearance of the husband. So, like, hey, when the husband shows up, treats happen. And they were like, Okay, so we wait for her to stop barking and then we throw treats. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Husband means treats. And we, I reiterated this every session for probably four or five sessions. And then in my last uh session that I had with them, they were like, Oh my gosh, she's so much better because we did exactly what you said. We waited for her to stop barking and then threw the treats. I was like, Great, great. I'm glad she's better. I love it. I love it. I mean, it can work that way. That's amazing. And I was like, oh my God, like you can I can't trust what and it just makes me think about you know how much weight we put on like eyewitnesses in our culture. I yeah. And it's like, no, no, no. People can't rem literally can't remember anything else.

SPEAKER_00

I have their medical records, right? So when they're like, my vet's said blah, blah, blah. I'm like, nope. Oh, yeah, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02

Nope, they said it all. I write down everything because I'm like, I want to be clear that I can go back and be like, here's what you said. True. Here's what I said. It was not what you think. But yeah, you know, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. And uh, and that just that has just been reinforced over the course of my career because yeah, yeah, you can't trust an eyewitness.

SPEAKER_00

No, I mean, I've been the eyewitness. Like I was just talking to um, because you know, I'm a medical advocate for a lot of medically complex people, and I was just talking to one of the practitioners the other day, and I was like, Yeah, so I did XYZ and I was giving the medication three times a day. And the doctor was like, I'm sorry, what? And I was like, I'm sorry what? She's like, you should only be doing that two times a day. I was like, I could have sworn you said three times a day. I would never say three times a day. I was like, damn it, I'm a I'm a doctor. I know, right?

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, that's true. It's just amazing. Well, here at the Behavior Buzz, we know you are all busy bees. Get a busy bees who live and die by the science like we do. So we'll put all of the references uh mentioned from today's show on the website. So buzz on over to the honeypot page to find those.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you guys so much, Dr. C and Ursa. This was such a fun topic, such a fun conversation. We got to laugh a lot. I love that you are champions for spicy pets and uh making the world better place. That's right, making the world a better place for everyone. We had an amazing conversation about astrophysics and and I appreciate that you have this amazing ability to create important, vital, and accessible content. So thank you so much for all of that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, can we talk about dark matter next time? Sure. Yeah, next time. I think we definitely should.

SPEAKER_03

And the and the boson particles. Yes. I don't even know what those are. I know.

SPEAKER_02

It'll blow your mind.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna learn a lot next time. Thanks so much for having us. It's great. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you to our premium sponsor, PRN PharmaCal, the makers of Reconcile. Reconcile is an FDA approved drug for the treatment of canine separation anxiety in conjunction with the behavior modification plan. PRN PharmaCal is committed to meeting the evolving needs of modern veterinary medicine and dedicated to developing products. To strengthen the bond between pets and their people. And HiveMind, we thank you especially because without listeners like you, we would have nothing to buzz on about. So grab a drink or a mocktail or a coffee and join us next time for cocktails and conversations.

SPEAKER_03

Follow us on all our socials.

SPEAKER_01

Facebook at Behavior Buzz, Instagram at BehaviorBuzz, and our website, behaviorbuzz.com. Be positive. Be informed. Now buzz off.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, if you don't like it, that's fine.

SPEAKER_05

All right.

SPEAKER_03

I know he doesn't have to go out. I let him out literally right before this podcast. And he's just like, me.

SPEAKER_04

I have so much FOMO. Please have so much FOMO. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_01

Hi, Marshall. Oh goodness.

SPEAKER_00

Clients don't know, even with explicit verbal instruction, what information their veterinary behaviorist needs to change their plan and support their pest.

SPEAKER_02

Their pest. Their pests. Their pest bests.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Okay, wait. I thought we did this one already, but we didn't. No.

SPEAKER_03

Now we're doing it. Hold on.

SPEAKER_00

Good good thing we can cut out while we think about it.

SPEAKER_03

We should get to play the Jeopardy theme.

SPEAKER_00

Are you guys hearing banging? Yes. I'm getting it.

SPEAKER_01

Getting poke put in. So he's gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

We're gonna try and help drown it out as much as possible. Okay, I didn't hear that part. I was just like, are we gonna get in trouble with John? No, I'm gonna be in trouble with John. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Nope, it's your fault. Everything is your fault.